| Author | Message | ||
     Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 22 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Hi. I noticed a lot of ebay auctions for JL watches have the 70's version no point fatter hands than the earlier version pointy thinner ones. Yet, these folks are putting these watches in the 1940-1969 catagory. Is this ethical or are there some late 1969 watches that have these fatter squared off hands? | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 1625 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Can you post some links? | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 23 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Okay. This is a 70's example that I am referring to: http://tinyurl.com/9yn7v Here are some of the 40-69 ones I am referring to: http://tinyurl.com/9tyvy http://tinyurl.com/99mhe Obviously this one is carelessly posted: http://tinyurl.com/b3sfe That's all I could find for now. | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 1627 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
As a rule of thumb, avoid any JLC "Club" watches. These were made during the dark ages of JLC when it almost went out of business during the Quartz revolution. They're junky watches with ETA or Schild movements. Not JLC ones. Look at the finish of the movements in the photos...not good. The first one looks weird, not even sure it's genuine. The style of hands on the last 3 do exist and can definitely be found on late 1960s watches. | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 24 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Yep. The first two are club models. The first one is blatantly iffy. The second club model also has a shady looking movement like the first one. The third SS item has the 70's looking hands but is being described as a 1950's watch. That is pretty misleading. :-) | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 30 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Zaf- Here is a perfect example. This one looks like an over 1970+ one to me, yet it was considered 1940-1969. IMO, just to a bid out of someone clueless. Is this pre 1970? http://tinyurl.com/7vyma | ||
| Ilja Probst Moderator Username: Ilja Post Number: 160 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Hi Hex Onx, I have a JLC Deep Sea Master Mariner (E558) from 1968 in my collection, the hands are identical. Are you starting a witch-hunt? I don�t see any reasons to blame sellers putting their stuff in the *wrong* cathegory. Sort of hair-splitting. Just my 5 Euro-cents. Ilja | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 31 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Oh pardon me. Since that peticular JLC isn't worth much, it's a moot point. However, if it was something like a my JLC Memodate World Timer alarm, I would be pissed if it was in the wrong category. Everyone would lose money and ignorance isn't going to let you get away with it. It would be wrong, but I'm just an American. Are you trying to start a fight? | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 32 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Here is a 1970's plus JLC HPG Master Mariner �DEEP SEA� divers watch with older looking traditional pointed hands. The movement looks the same as the pre 70's link that I posted but now I give up trying to figure out what is what with the hands. I guess you have to go by the movement grade in order to date it correctly. http://tinyurl.com/7djwx | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 33 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
BTW, since 'Ilja' brought up "witch hunts', check out the Rolex next to the JLC. It looks as fake as a three dollar bill. :-) You can tell just by the poor quality in the bracelet, but I could be wrong. http://tinyurl.com/7vyma | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 1630 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Hmmm...both the Master Mariner Deep Sea and the above post look like fakes to me... | ||
| Ilja Probst Moderator Username: Ilja Post Number: 161 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Hi Hex Onx, I don�t start a fight, nor was my posting meant as an offence. As a general statement, for buying via Ebay, a lot of knowledge is needed not to end pissed. Plenty of fakes, put-together or even artisian watches are offered there. Ebay seems to give a •••• for offering fakes. Not to speak about fraudulent auctions, which are just ended when YOU force them to do so. - of course fraudulent seller accounts are closed very seldom... So having this picture, I think putting a watch in the wrong category is a minor problem at all. The orange bezel Master Mariner thing is a US market watch, seen frequently on Ebay. I don�t think it�s a fake, but of course due to its poor movement quality not collectible. Just to avoid misunderstanding, the Deep Sea Master Mariner I refered to as an example looks like this: http://www.vintagewatchpriceguide.com/graphics/images/watches/mp0024.jpg (Reference E558, caliber 883, also available as Jaeger-LeCoultre version) Ilja | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 34 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Zaf, Ilja et al, I guess the Luxury Institute is blowing smoke saying they focus soley on the 10% of the US wealthy. First of all, the wealthy wouldn't be buying vintage as much as the average collector, IMHO. After you mentioned that both look bogus, I took another look and I "must" have to agree with you. The gold master mariner case looks so common, I have seen Hamiltons with that type of case and other brands. And I think this is a good example of the dark and cloudy ages of the movement quality that you mentioned with the "club" type model. Of course Ilja's link to that mp0024.jpg Master Mariner is good quality and a fine catch for that era. BTW- I'm not trolling with this thread. I was just trying to get opinions and compare them with my beginners eye. My current collection consists of 1 JLC SS manual with SS braclet, 1 JLC memodate world timer alarm automatic w/ manual, International guarentee and the green JLC case and I just recently acquired two Hamiltons. Next I have to read up on the subject at hand and determine if I want to get more serious in the future. Anyone can buy gold and silver but it isn't alive unless it ticks. :-) I'm currently looking at vintage watchmakers tools and the latest reference books out there. I'm reading all the comments and reviews. Very entertaining. | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 35 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Ilja- Regarding your comment about Ebay and fakes, I agree. Here is a perfect example from their one watch discussion forum. http://forums.ebay.com/db1/thread.jspa?threadID=1000213052&tstart=0&mod=11391003 15838 | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 1637 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
I think the watches are fake, they are marked HPG and have a junk movement which is marked "LeCoultre Watch Co.". I do not think these are genuine. | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 36 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Zaf et al- More "Club" JLCs from the "LeCoultre Watch Co." The bid is over $780 US already... What a shame. I guess that makes the vintage JLCs more appealing. It's like the stock market, pumping and dumping. :-) http://tinyurl.com/9yn7v | ||
| Ilja Probst Moderator Username: Ilja Post Number: 163 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Funniest thing is this damn watch is GOLD PLATED, so even no material value... For the records: Reference 3007.06, caliber 1906, catalog dated 12.4.69 (April, 12th 1969). Ilja | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 1639 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Whatever they are, they're pure trash. In fact JLC should buy all these back just to destroy them. On the Amarican market HPG Master Mariner �DEEP SEA�, do we really think the rotor would be marked "LeCoultre Watch Co." and HPG which meant something like "High Precision Guaranteed" would find itself on such a trash movement? | ||
| Ilja Probst Moderator Username: Ilja Post Number: 164 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Curious is that these probably came as JLC signed as well: http://www.dashto.org/newlists/images/047159-60.jpg And a spare dial of this divers beast: http://www.dashto.org/newlists/images/047170-2.jpg I think JLC had were VERY VERY dark days back than... European 70�s dealer' catalog doesn�t help here, just lists Club series and Master Mariner as we know them as tested Chronometer (cal. 906). I don�t think it makes any sense to fake those rubbish watches, but perhaps some are sort of put-together from the remaining US inventory from Mr. Kling... | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 37 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Don't look now but I think there is a flood of "high suspect" JLC watches currently soaking Ebay. Of course corp doesn't seem to care what is authentic and most of the JLC owners do not seem to blow the whistle like the Rolex owner do. You can't even find a replica rolex auction anymore. | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 38 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
Try this. Search for Vintage LeCoultre and you will see what I mean. Keep the Jaeger out of the search and Voila! | ||
| GregB Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
Addressing the original subject of this thread, remember: 1) Older JLC & LeCoultre reference material is almost non-existent and 2) No *published* database linking JLC movement serial number to production year exists (yet) Therefore, calling sellers who happen to guess the wrong year on their watch "unethical" is inappropriate. I would agree with Ilja that such a serious condemnation for an innocent and small offense is way over the top. I would reserve such harsh words for sellers who *knowingly* mislead buyers with more important matters... condition, authenticity, etc. I don't think that is happening in any of the examples given. I've seen you (Hex) lambast sellers on the subject of accidental mis-dating in other threads (Hamilton) and I'm not sure why you consider this such a serious offense. Most of the available production databases are approximations to begin with and they reference the movement production date, not when the watch was cased and sold. Therefore dating in its entirety is very subjective and imprecise even on manufactures that are well documented. Your expectations may be unreasonable under the *best* of circumstances. If the seller shows you clearly in pictures what the watch looks like such that you, the buyer, can determine the approximate date, where's the problem? Greg | ||
| Ilja Probst Moderator Username: Ilja Post Number: 165 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Hex - we can�t rescue the world even when we wish to do so. So in the end each buyer is responsible for his bought items. There are plenty of books, online fora and commercial datebases to be used to for self education. Each lacks informations, some brands are under represented, but in total the available info should enable each interested to be prepared for his buyings. JLC might be a big exeception, since vintage knowledge - as Greg points out - is very limited and no substential book is on the market. But even this circumstands have a positive aspect: JLC watches are still cheap compared to other brands playing in this league today. Faked and put-together watches have been an issue since day one of watch collecting and even before. Buy the seller, not the watch. This is the only advice I can give. Ilja, now finally leaving this thread. | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 39 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
All valid points. We can all discuss this til the cows comes home and I'm glad to provide fodder for thought. Still, it is good to know that there are still some people out there that care about the quality and the authenticity even off dating catagory for those who are not in the know. Granted, folks will have to fend for themselves in the end. I like to usually try to get it right the first time with I do something new. Please don't take that wrong. Et Al. BTW, GergB when are you ever going to register? It's not like you have to give away personal information like your SS number. :-) How do I know I am reading the real GregB response.  All- Stay aware, stay free and stay in touch! | ||
| GregB Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
I don't register because I don't want my e-mail address posted public forums where it gets picked up by bots and put on spam lists. Zaf and others know how to reach me. I'm not a stranger to the boards or to the watch community. | ||
| Hex Onx New member Username: Hexonx Post Number: 41 Registered: 09-2005 Rating: N/A |
OIC. That's a fair point. I use Yahoo and that eliminates the spam for me. I think spam is getting beat slowly but surely. | ||
| peteyoder Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
ok, First time person here. Are "Club" watches are actually Longines buy another name with different movements ? I have seen several "JLC that look like longines ultra-chrons with ugly dials. | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 1891 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
They're made from "generic" parts, so they may look like other brands that use the same componentry. |