| Author | Message | ||
     John Ireland New member Username: Figcar Post Number: 10 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Well...it's a Reverso and it isn't but it is. Favre Leuba seems to have been a minor company that made few interesting watches...but like so many...died a slow death startingin the quartz seventies. When JLC came out the Reverson, it seems several companies played copy cat. The Hamilton Otis and the Favre Leuba are probably the most famouse. This 40's FV is silver plated as opposed to just chrome. The edges aren't as smooth as the JLC originals...and the FV feels bigger than I really want...in fact it seems only the older original style (one face side, one metal side) have the slighter lenght and thickness that (IMO) makes better looking watch. But here it is for your inspection...and if you have any other information about other companies that tried this, please let me know.      regards, John | ||
| John Ireland New member Username: Figcar Post Number: 11 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Well imagine my surprise when I paid a trip to Google and looked up FV and found that the company I had referred to as a "minor company" that had "disappeard", was in fact being brought back into active production...and is the second oldest Swiss watch manufacturer...right behind Blancpain. Good old Google has already introduced me to several sights and I expect to learn more about the brand...and their relationship to JLC. | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 730 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Hello John, excellent post. I am fairly sure the the Favre-Leuba, as with the Hamilton Otis, JLC was able to halt production after sucessful patent infrigement suits. These are semi-rare watches, but in both cases inferior to the Original JLC product. | ||
| John Ireland New member Username: Figcar Post Number: 12 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello Zaf and I agree that their movements and case finish are not equal to the JLC Reversos. It seems that at one point a member of the Leuba family was involved in JLC management. There was also a period, I have heard, where JLC stopped producing the Reverso...and I think the FV of mine may have been a 1950s model and perhaps slipped into the tent that way. The Hamilton Otis I believe is from the same time period of the original JLC Reverso and it has more of the JLC lines...the softer edges, etc. In the meantime I will continue my search for a nice vintage Reverso...I recently saw one on a man's wrist and it was not as large as my FV or the newer multi-face models. I may even find myself prefering a woman's size...more along the size of my DuoPlan. What tickles me to no end is the lovely feel and style of the Powermatic...all this and on a 16mm strap. Regards, John ps...how is the book going and have you set it up with a publisher or are you going to market it on your own? | ||
| Ilja Probst Moderator Username: Ilja Post Number: 76 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Hi John, the original, - let�s say first generation - JLC Reverso was produced up until the mid 50�s. Vintage advertisings give proof of this. According to "Reverso the living ledgend" book published 1991, Hamilton was allowed to produce the Otis model for the US market. In the meantime JLC admitted mistakes in their book, without becoming specific. Other than this outsourced production, JLC made the Reverso for Patek and Cartier. At least these brands had their signature on the dial without an additional JLC signature, some other might be possible... 30�s and early 40�s Reversos also came with retailer signature, such like Türler, Gübelin, Hausmann, Alf Lie, but also and here the story get interesting; Favre Leuba. BUT: This Favre Leuba is based on a jeweler who mainly retailed in India. Several other (mainly rectangular) models have been observed with the additional Favre Leuba signature. I�m pretty sure this jeweler was not connected with the Swiss watch company Favre Leuba. The watch you got there is a cheap and higly unprofessional remake, which I believe was made in the 80�s or even later, probably to serve the collectors market. Unfortunaltely the patent for the Reverso ended, so several less known brands produce watches in "Reverso style". Ilja | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 731 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Ilja, I am fairly sure Hamilton wash't allowed to produce the Otis as they were sucessfully sued by JLC. On the otherhand, I have not been able to find the legal case -- which doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen. | ||
| Ilja Probst Moderator Username: Ilja Post Number: 77 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
I agree with you. Although the Hamilton Otis is the best of all "Reverso-style" watches, just the lug-frame is slightly different from the backside. At least the Otis is a respected and hightly collectable Hamilton product selling close to JLC Reversos. | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 732 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
Well sort of. Just about all the Otises have gold filled cases. Not the most brillant idea for a watch with moving case parts. It's worth what it is because it is rare. | ||
| John Ireland New member Username: Figcar Post Number: 13 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello all and thanks for your comments. Ilja, your comments on the watch made me go back to the seller and ask more questions and express my doubts about the watch's provenance. The seller gave me all the assurance he could and offered that if it was not enough, he would gladely refund my full price. In looking at his other pieces for sale and after reading his feedback, I concluded that he has sold the watch in good faith. Still I also value your opinion and am sending the watch back to him. At the same time, I feel that as a buyer I am responsible for my half of an agreement so instead of a refund, I have asked for another watch from his stock...and this other watch is one that I can resell with confidence in what I am offering to another enthusiast. I consider the entire transaction a successful one since all parties behaved with honor and good ethics. Thank you for your critical advice. It gave me a chance for reflection and also additional knowledge. Regards, John | ||
| Clavi Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
Well, John, I am happy that you found a solution with your seller. However, I think he was kind to offer you a refund, as nothing was wrong imho with the watch. This watch was definitively a watch produced by Favre Leuba, in the reverso style. It was not a fake of any kind.... I know that in the various forums people are trying to downplay these watches. Yes, they are not Jaeger-LeCoultre (but they never pretended to be), however, these watches have existed at some point in time, and were not copies (the design of the reverso was not used by JLC anymore when they were produced), so they are definitively genuine (to the same extent that the Otis are; as pointed by Zaf), and as such, they deserve to figure in a watch collection. I own one, as well as 2 vintage JLC reverso, and although I would not compare them in terms of historical importance or overall quality, I am happy to have it along my other watches. Glad you are happy with your new watch ! Clavi  | ||
| Ilja Probst Moderator Username: Ilja Post Number: 78 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
John, I�m glad you found a way to deal with this watch. I never meant the seller was aware of selling, what still in my mind is, a "fake". ;) Clavi, I would like to see a proof that these watches really have been "produced" by Favre Leuba, also the particular date of production would be very interesting... It might be these watches never were thought to be Reverso "fakes", but since a huge quantity of additional Favre Leuba signed *real* Reversos are known, the interested novice in this field often believes to get a bargain on a *real* Reverso. Honestly, such a watch can be a disapointment when seen physical, even *real* vintage Reversos look like fakes compared with the current production ones. But the FL Reverso craftmanship is significant bad. Speaking of fakes, check out what Zaf posted: http://66.92.151.22/discus/messages/2234/2242.html?1087150356 Ilja | ||
| Clavi Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
Hi Ilja, Yes, I was aware of this "fake" shown by Zaf...obviously created recently in order to try to recreate a vintage, but with a straight caseback copied on the modern one. To be back to the FL, that's true that I can't support the production dates nor the FL origin by any documents. However, these watches are definitively "vintage" (sort of 50's-70's vintage) by observation, and although I understand that there might be a confusion with the 30's FL-signed reversos (which were usually double signed, and had the easily recognisable JLC or Tavannes mvt), I don't see why people would have tried to fake them at a time when reversos were not collectible (who really knew of them by then), especially not using the JLC name on the fake.... Of course, the quality of the FL is bellow the quality of a JLC vintage reverso, but manufacturing a rectangular reversible watch with a form movement has probably taken a lot of effort, and I doubt "independent", "bad-intentioned" people would have put so much effort in order to create a fake of something relatively unknown, and even not faking the brand itself. Again, I have no real supporting / written facts, but it is sure that these watches 1) are at least 30-40 years old 2) have FL form movements (which were probably not so easy to find) 3) have specific cases which were only used in this series, and not known in any reverso fakes to my knowledge In addition, the Reverso was really discontinued in the 60's and the patent was public domain at the time. JLC did recreate the reverso in the 70's with a quite different 2 stripes version. And although some people say there were no connections between FL and JLC, JLC was indeed directed by mister Favre at some point, and some Favre Leuba (e.g. the Memoraider) had JLC-signed movements in them, so this proves that there was at least some close connection between the 2. I would like to have a definitive answer to this grey area, but sofar, the "evidences" I have read on the other forum that the FL are not legitimate (I mean to the same extent as the earlier Otises were) were not convincing... Let's hope someone will come with a proof someday :-) Anyway, I concur with you that it is likely that some people are now confused with the 30's FL signed reverso and think they make a bargain (but then they should read more Finertimes forum before buying ! ) BTW, what's new in your collection ? It's been a long time without reading about your new finds !!! Hope the hunt is still good Clavi |