| Author | Message | ||
     Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
I figure since the old post on the JLC's is getting too long, we'll start a new one. First, here are the pictures of the JLC buckle you are referring to: http://i17.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/aa/af/a4f8_1.JPG http://i12.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/aa/af/a62b_1.JPG The engraving "Plaque G", means plaque gold, or gold plated. Depose is equivalent to the English trademark (TM). I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that this buckle is a replacement from the same contractor (AW?) who originally made the JLC buckles. This one has identical markings to the one I purchased for my watch. I've seen plated versions with "Jaeger-LeCoultre" on the back and believe those to be fakes. It could be original, it's really impossible to know for sure. But it is of the proper style for the period. Then again, the only way to know for sure it's an original JLC, is to buy it from JLC, and they just don't have them anymore. The Canadian pieces are likely cast from something like these. And if you want one that's sold gold, it may be the only option. I can't remember seeing the Swiss hallmarked solid gold buckles in this style for sale anywhere, ever. Hope this helps, gatorcpa | ||
| Arctis New member Username: Arctis Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
there was one solid gold buckle of this style (1964) sold on ebay one year ago, with swiss and english hallmarks. Everything seemed original, and the auction ended at about $300 if I correctly remember. But it's very, very rare... | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 35 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
gatorcpa, thanks for starting a new thread. I was actually thinking about the same thing too. Thanks for the explanation about "replacement". But since this buckle width is 16mm (as told by the seller), does it mean anything? You said you've one pretty much identical to this one. What's the inside (mounting) width of yours? | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
I think mine is either 14mm or 15mm. I know it did not fit on the 18mm/16mm aftermarket strap that came with my watch. I had to move a strap from another watch to fit the buckle. JLC sold a lot of bands, so I would guess that they made these in various sizes. One mm too small is not a problem, it's just a little tight. Two mm is enough of a difference, where it just won't fit at all. gatorcpa | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 37 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Just as an example, this solid gold one is a "fake"? http://cgi.ebay.com/JAEGER-18K-YELLOW-GOLD-WATCH-BUCKLE_W0QQitemZ150143969464QQi hZ005QQcategoryZ10324QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I do want to make a note that the seller never claimed this was a real JLC buckle, and in the title, he/she only said "Jaeger" not JLC. If someone being dishonest and claims this is a real vintage JLC buckle, how can I tell? The workmanship seems to be pretty good. Is it the JL hallmark in the back as gatorcpa has said before? Or the 16mm width? | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
"Fake" is probably too strong of a word, since it implies an intent to deceive. That is, unless this buckle is not 18K gold. You would have to have it tested to be sure. I'd prefer to call that one a "replica". An original would have Swiss hallmarks on the back. This one does not. This is why I would not try to buy a solid gold JLC buckle. With a plated buckle, there is no implication that it is anything more than a plated buckle and you are not paying extra for gold content that may or may not be there. Hope this helps, gatorcpa | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 38 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Arctis. I can see why the sub $200 "replica" selling pretty well on the bay. | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 39 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
From the same seller under a different handle, this has a different hallmark: http://cgi.ebay.com/Jaeger-Solid-Yellow-Gold-Buckle-18-K_W0QQitemZ250149642360QQ ihZ015QQcategoryZ10363QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
I'll disagree with gatorcpa on the issue of whether this illegal reproduction should be called "fake" (post #41). 1) The buckle was not produced or authorized by Jaeger-LeCoultre 2) The JL logo is trademarked and is being used illegally and without license 3) The seller does not disclose that he is selling reproductions, but rather lets the buyer assume it is an authentic item. Deception. I don't think you could form a better definition of "fake" if you tried. I'd like to see all these fake buckles in the trash heap so buyers aren't continually deceived into thinking they're buying authentic parts. This same seller also makes/sells fake Vacheron, Rolex, Breitling and other brand buckles. Greg | ||
| Arctis New member Username: Arctis Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2005 Rating: N/A |
I agree that such a buckle is a fake, since it's an unauthorised reproduction. But it has to be noticed that when somebody want to get a real original vintage buckle directly to Jaeger, they show an incredible ignorance about the history of their own products. I asked one vintage buckle to JLC Vendome, who then asked to JLC switzerland, and they tried to sell me a 1980's buckle as a 60's one, for more than �300 ! | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 42 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
I am trying not to get into the argument as I recall a previous thread have also evolved into the same argument. Now that I start paying attention to the buckle, I prefer to stick to the real thing, even if it means it will take years to acquire one. And that's why I have all these questions so I can be a better judge of what's real and what's not. Greg, I want a second opinion. Back to the crosshair JLC buckle, since the seller indicated it's 16mm in width, does that indicative of a fake/reproduction? gatorcpa has mentioned JLC made various sizes during that era and thinks it could be real, so I just want to hear you or any one else's opinions. | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 43 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
On second thought, I do have a statement I want to make. Since there were two camps on this issue about reproduction vs. fake, I think the situation is a lot less clean cut than say, illegal DVD copies. With those consumer goods like DVD, CD, modern watches, etc., the real things are readily available. So to purchase an illegal bootleg copy is just as it says, illegal. "It's cheaper" is not an argument. With the vintage JLC buckles, since JLC doesn't make them any more, it is tough for dealers/resellers of vintage watches to make their livings. I have no problem if a vintage JLC watch that I really like have a replacement buckle as long as it is clearly indicated so by the dealer/reseller. It just means I will have to ask the dealer/reseller to look out for an authentic buckle for me. Once I got the real thing, I will toss out the fake out. With the same argument, I also don't mind to purchase a vintage JLC with a non-JLC buckle if a real one is not available. If I deem the real one is too expensive at that point in time I will simply stop hunting for one. Bottom line, I am okay with dealers/resellers that use replacement JLC buckles and being honest about it, as I see them being pushed into a corner by the demands from customers and the lack of support from JLC. | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
Marty, Actually, there shouldn't be "two camps". This isn't a gray issue... the buckles are illegal and trademark law is very clear about that. Dealers and collectors may lament that the authentic buckles are hard to find and may be tempted to buy the illegal reproductions, but that still doesn't make these unauthorized reproductions legal. The whole appeal of collecting vintage, IMHO, is finding that "holy grail" - things that are desirable but difficult to find. The thrill of the hunt. Sure, isn't it a shame that rare JLC Polaris models are so tough to find, but wouldn't the group be outraged if somebody started making illegal reproductions of those, too? Same thing. I find it odd that some of the people who seem so against fakes when it comes to complete watches have no trouble with fake/illegal buckles and other parts. Where is the line drawn? Is it OK for the Chinese manufacturers to flood the market with fake vintage 1950s/1960s Omega Constellation cases, also (something that is happening right now)? This is a slippery slope if we begin turning a blind eye and are complacent with the ILLEGAL fake/replica parts entering the marketplace. Today it's buckles and fake straps. Tomorrow it's fake cases and movement parts. Where does it end? Pretty soon, all authentic parts are devalued in the market because of the proliferation of fakes and nobody can tell what is real/fake anymore. We all lose... except the seller making the buckles, because he reaps an unjust windfall profit from the unauthorized use of JLC's trademark and gets a premium price for the buckle. No, Marty, this isn't a gray area. It isn't legal AND it isn't moral. The buckles are a trademark violation under U.S. law and are illegal to sell. Period. In addition, in every single auction where I've seen them sold, it has NEVER been disclosed that they were reproductions, so there is deceipt and fraud involved, also. I won't be a part of it as either a buyer or a seller. Greg | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
"I think the situation is a lot less clean cut than say, illegal DVD copies" I agree with you, because the original is avaliable for purchase, either in the theatre or at the store. This is stealing from the movie makers. My feeling is that since JLC can't or won't support its legitimate vintage products, you really don't have a choice. Nowhere in either listing is the seller implying that these are genuine JLC products. It's buy these buckles or nothing at all. Now, if these solid gold version are not really solid gold...that's outright fraud. To me, this is the same as if you had a 1957 Chevy and needed a hood ornament. Since GM no longer makes these parts, your only choice may be to buy a replica from a catalog. So long as this is noted if you sell the car, I see no problem. GregB and I have gone back and forth on the issue before. We've agreed to disagree here. Some would prefer to buy nothing at all, and I certainly respect that position. gatorcpa PS - I still think the buckle on the first thread in this post is legitimate and from a time where JLC was still supplying parts to its dealers. | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
Gatorcpa, I want to make sure I understand your position: 1) Are you saying that trademark law magically disappears and does not apply if the original manufacturer won't give you the vintage part you desire from them? (By the way, as trademark owner, that's their right) If you truly believe this, I would advise you to familiarize yourself with intellectual property law. 2) Are you saying that the seller of these illegally reproduced parts isn't reaping an unearned windfall profit that he/she doesn't deserve? Generic gold buckles sell for about $75, while the fake buckles with the JLC logo are sold for $135. The seller is making $60 profit from the use of a trademark they don't own and haven't licensed. 3) Do you believe that fraud and deceipt is NOT being used to sell these buckles? Can you show me a single example where the seller declares openly to potential buyers that the buckles are reproductions? After all, if if were legal and moral, as you seem to believe, what would be the need to hide the fact from buyers that these buckles are reproductions? Do you not consider the deceit being practiced by the seller to be wrong? I find it very hard to believe that a reasonable individual chooses not to recognize fraud when it is so obvious and clear-cut. Comparing this situation with DVDs and car parts is apples/oranges and irrelevant. Reproduction car parts manufacturers are required to get prior approval and pay license fees for any trademarked logo items they manufacture. They are also required to disclose that the items are reproductions. The seller of these fake buckles does neither. Laws are clearly being broken, buyers are clearly being deceived and there ARE injured parties. 1)JLC doesn't receive license fees 2)The buyers of the fake buckles don't receive what they though they were buying (authentic items) 3)The owners of genuine buckles (who played by the rules and worked long/hard to find genuine buckles) have their authentic items devalued by the glut of fakes in the market. 4)The fake buckles are installed on JLC watches by the unknowing buyers and then sold to yet another victim who believes them are purchasing a watch with a genuine buckle. People can choose whichever side of this issue that they want, however don't deceive yourself in the process: if you choose to condone these fake buckles, you are condoning acts of fraud and trademark infringement. That part is factual and not simply a matter of opinion to be debated. Greg | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
Agreed, the trademark to the JLC logo is their property. It is likely being infringed on here. However, there have been cases where trademark owners have lost their rights when they fail to defend their trademarks. That is the law as well. Doesn't make it right, it's just the law. That is why Rolex has successfully sued for copyright infringement when its intellectual property had been stolen. That is why you cannot use the work "Tank" in describing a watch unless it is a Cartier. That is why Disney sued a local day care center for painting a faux Mickey Mouse on a wall (then donated someone to do it correctly). JLC must take action this person and eBay if they believe their trademark has been violated. My guess is that eBay would kick this seller off in a minute if they were sued by JLC. If JLC chooses not to defend themselves, and risks losing their intangible property, that is their right also. However, then it is they who have participated in injuring their good name. No, I'm not happy about what this person sells. I've personally chosen not to patronize them as I do not believe them to be licensed. All I can do is try to educate myself as to what products are legitimate. And help others by passing that information on when I find out. I wish JLC felt the same. Then this would stop. But I won't condemn someone else's decisions when I don't know all the facts. There is more to this legal issue than meets the eye, and I'm not so presumptuous to know the precedents here. I'll leave that to those that do. gatorcpa | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 45 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Greg, I think my wording might not have been as precise as I would like. From my previous entry (#43): "With the same argument, I also don't mind to purchase a vintage JLC with a non-JLC buckle if a real one is not available." What I meant was I don't mind a plain buckle without any JLC logo. I don't mean I don't mind to use a fake buckle and stop there. BTW, as gatorcpa has said, all I want to do is "try to educate myself as to what products are legitimate". In light of that, do you have any second opinion about the 16mm width question I asked earlier (post #42)? | ||
| Herman New member Username: Herman Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
So is it Beyond the Unwritten Rules to ask who this "Canadian source" is? As far as I can tell there are two eBay sellers supplying brand name buckles: one in Argentine and one in Canada. But the funny thing is: the Canadian chap (using a Babylonian divinity for his name) is selling 14 or 16 mm buckles, whereas the demand would be for 18 mm ones, wouldn't it? Neither seller is saying they're selling "vintage" buckles. The fellow from Argentine is saying they are "new". As far as the infringment on JLC's intellectual property is concerned I could imagine a lot of people not losing sleep over the fact that they're buying a replica, as long as the supplier is upfront about it. I suspect most people would consider the real intellectual property is in the watch, not the buckle, plus, as Gatorpca mentioned, why isn't JLC producing these buckles? There should be a substantial market for 18mm buckles, to replace hundreds of thousands obsolete 16 mm buckles. Facing the fact that it is pretty much impossible to get an original 18mm solid gold JLC buckle within a reasonable time frame (and not costing a third of what the entire watch costs) I opted for a no-brand solid 18K buckle that suits the style of the watch, and frankly I feel totally fine about it. | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
Herman - Actually, most contemporary 18mm size straps taper somewhat at the buckle to 16mm. Vintage straps tend to taper off a bit more to 14-15mm. Don't go by the size of the strap where it is attached to the watch, although this is what is usually printed on the strap. An 18mm buckle would more likely be matched with a 20mm or greater width strap. Hope this helps, gatorcpa | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
Herman - Actually, most contemporary 18mm size straps taper somewhat at the buckle to 16mm. Vintage straps tend to taper off a bit more to 14-15mm. Don't go by the size of the strap where it is attached to the watch, although this is what is usually printed on the strap. An 18mm buckle would more likely be matched with a 20mm or greater width strap. Hope this helps, gatorcpa | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
Marty, Buckles were made in all widths to accomodate lug widths up to 20mm in some models (with a 16mm buckle). In addition, strap tapering changed over the years while the buckles were still being produced. You can find virtually any width authentic buckle you need if you are willing to look long and hard. I have a good stock of authentic JLC buckles that I've collected over the years for my own use. I'm very persistent about the issue of illegal fakes because I see where it is going and the damage it is doing to our hobby. Besides these buckles, I'm also starting to see tons of other reproduction vintage parts coming out of China, Thailand and Cambodia: *- fake 1950s/60s Omega Constellation dials *- fake 1950s/60s 18K gold Omega Constellation cases *- fake 1950s/60s Stainless Steel Omega Constellation cases *- fake 1960s JLC-signed stainless chronograph cases *- fake 1960s JLC-signed chronograph bridge parts *- fake logo buckles of EVERY brand *- fake logo bracelets and straps of EVERY brand *- fake vintage Rolex manuals, hang tags, boxes and papers *- fake dealer logo signs and clocks of EVERY brand *- fake dealer promotional items (pens, cufflinks, notebooks, billfolds, etc.) of EVERY brand *- fake Rolex Daytona dials, cases and parts to convert generic Valjoux movements into fake early Daytonas And the list grows with each passing day, because short-sighted collectors turn a blind eye to the fraud taking place in the market. Then they complain when frankenwatches and outright fakes are sold. It seems a double standard to me. Greg | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 47 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Greg thanks for the info on the buckles and the list of fakes that you know of. I personally won't be too hard on dealers/resellers if they disclose they are using reproduction buckles. But it stops there. A watch's cataloged appearance is defined by it's case/bezel/dial/hands. I won't stand any fake case/bezel/dial/hands, disclosure or not. And a watch is chiefly defined by it's movement, and I also won't allow any fake movement parts either. Buckle (and to some extend, crown) is sort of a grey area for me. That's probably the same reason why I don't mind a vintage watch with a non-JLC logo'ed gold buckle if a real one is too hard to find or too expensive for me. But for all other parts, like casing, movement, dial, crown, etc., I either take the real one or nothing. I also have to totally argee with you that, for the past few months that I've followed the vintage thread and knowing what I know now about buckles, I have not seen a single seller disclosing he/she was using a fake buckle. They just simply gloss over without mentioning the 18K bucket at all. | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
MartyW It's a grey area to everyone. You are to be commended for your well reasoned approach to collecting. GregB has a point when he mentions that in many cases, the sellers don't know whether the buckles are real. I just wish that JLC would release factory information on these items so we all can distinguish what is real from what isn't. Info on serial numbers would be nice, too. Even Rolex released that. Take care, gatorcpa | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
The Canadian seller has already had all of his illegal reproduction buckles removed from eBay yesterday for trademark violation. He was operating under 2 IDs. One of his IDs was suspended by eBay and the other will likely be suspended the next time he lists illegal buckles. I believe that the Argentinian seller of the (really bad quality) reproduction buckles will be suspended in the next few days, also. Crime doesn't pay. Even if most of the buyers don't care about trademark infringement and replica items, the manufacturers and the legal community do. Greg |