| Author | Message | ||
     Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi all, I am very new to JLC and after reading through many of the old posts, one finding I have is there are a lot of fakes and frankenwatches on the "bay". You see, my dad used to have a JLC but about 25 years ago it was stolen together with many items in the house. He has not replaced the watch since (due to a bad insurance setup, nothing was covered). So I am thinking I want to buy a vintage JLC that closely resembles his basic old one to give him as a birthday present. I am not in a hurry and I want to do it right. Currently there is one on the bay that catches my eye. If that watch has a movement serial number in the 163xxxx range, can I assume it was really produced in the 60's (which will be the same era as my dad's original one)? On the dial, it says Jaeger-LeCoultre. So this is a non-US model (same as my dad's). During that time, did JLC put the raised JL logo just above the name on the dial too? I seem to remember my dad's one has the raised JL logo too, but not 100% sure. The other generic question I have is if the dial says Jaeger-LeCoultre, the movement also stamped Jaeger-LeCoultre, should the inside of the case-back be stamped with Jaeger-LeCoultre too? This particular one on the bay has LeCoultre stamped inside the case-back. Is that an indication of a frankenwatch? One last generic question, this particular watch is suppose to be 18K. Did JLC also put hallmarks (750) on the case-top besides just the case-back (which has 750 inside and an "A" on the watch back). If JLC doesn't hallmark the case top, can someone take a goldplated case top and fits it with a 18K case back and call this a solid 18K watch? Thanks in advance for any advises other forum members can offer me. | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 2712 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
A picture would help. Try to post one w/o revealing the auction, if it is still live, thanks. | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, Zaf. I've read you normally don't like to comment on on-going auctions, so I didn't put any direct reference here. Since the seller actually watermarks his pictures, I hope you don't mind if I just put the auction number here instead: 170131732938 Thanks again. | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
I have a very similar watch, a little bit older, I think. http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/gatorcpa/Watch%20Photos/Jaeger-LeCoultre/7 b_3.jpg http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/gatorcpa/Watch%20Photos/Jaeger-LeCoultre/D SCN0107a.jpg To address some of your questions: There are hallmarks on the back of the lugs, which are part of the top of the case. The "A" code is supposed to mean 18K gold, but not all JLC's have it. Zaf is the expert on JLC serial numbers, but my guess is both watches were made sometime in the 1960's. I can't comment on my movement. I've never seen it. The watch keeps time to within one second a day and I'm afraid to mess it up. However, I've see a lot of these JLC's, and all have cases marked "LeCoultre Co, Swiss". Movements have a JLC signature, not LeCoultre. The one you mentioned has a replacement gold plated JLC buckle. It likely originally came with a matching 18K rose gold buckle. However, these solid gold buckles are extremely hard to come by. I suspect many were either discarded or sold for scrap back when gold was $800 per oz. in the 1980's. I feel for you, I was lucky enough to be able to replace my father's US market LeCoultre (also stolen in a break-in) a few years ago, before prices got too expensive. That was my first vintage purchase...twenty or so purchases ago. This can get addicting, so "watch" out! gatorcpa | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
Marty, The movement serial number on the watch you're considering corresponds to a production date of approximately 1966. To amplify on what gatorcpa already posted about buckles, the reason so few original solid gold buckles remain with their original vintage watches is because the vintage straps tapered more than modern straps. e.g., a modern 18mm strap uses a 16mm buckle, however a vintage 18mm strap typically uses a 14 or 15mm buckle. When the owner tried to replace the worn-out original strap, they discovered that the original buckle was too small to fit the replacement modern strap, so the buckle was discarded or lost. Warning: most of the solid 18K gold JLC-logo buckles (and also most of the SS ones) being sold on eBay are fakes/reproductions. One seller in Canada seems to be the source/manufacturer of these fake buckles. Greg | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Gatorcpa and Greg about the buckle. I've seen a recent sales of one 18K buckle on the bay, and at that price, you certainly won't see me buying it! And thanks for the warning about that's a fake/reproduction. And I don't think I need to know why that's a fake/reproduction as I just don't see I will shell out that much for a buckle. From reading on this forum I also agree with you both that the watch that I am mentioning probably has a solid 18K buckle goes with it in its hayday. | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Back to about being triple signed, so it is legit that the dial and movement is JLC while the case is LeCoultre. Can I also conclude if the dial is JLC (non-US vintage), the movement has to be JLC else it's a frankenwatch? | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Gatorcpa, thanks for the pictures. The other thing I was thinking was the crown on that watch on the bay was not original. It was too thick. I kind of thought it should be thinner, like a disc. But since it is signed, I am not going to make a big fuss about it. I'm glad to see your watch also has a thick crown. In your picture of the back of the lugs, I can see two hallmarks. However, I don't think I can see any hallmarks on the back of the lugs of the watch that I've mentioned. Do I have to worry about that? When you said "not all JLCs have it", are you referring to the hallmarks on the lugs or the caseback? I notice your watch doesn't have the hallmark on the caseback. That, however, I am not worrying as there are always hallmarks inside the caseback. I am just thinking what's the chance the case top is not JLC. I'd seen couple auctions and the seller stated their JLCs are with non-JLC 18K case top. How can you tell? | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
MartyW - I think it would be unlikely that the case top and case back did not go together. It would be rather expensive to fabricate a case with the same color and fit. But it can be done, so you do need to be wary. I've never really understood why Swiss hallmarks were placed in different places on watches that were otherwise the same. Normally, I'd say different contractors, but JLC generally made their own cases in Switzerland. When I said that "not all JLCs have it", I was referring to the "A", denoting an 18K gold case back. Regarding the inside engraving, I'd be worried if it were a JLC dial/movement and the inscription read, "Cased and Timed in the USA by LeCoultre". That is written only on USA produced cases, which this one clearly is not. Personally, this one looks OK to me, but it's real difficult to say without seeing it in person. It's in much better condition than mine, at least on the outside. Hope this helps, gatorcpa | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, Gatorcpa. If what you are saying about optional is the "A" in the caseback, am I correct that all JLC casetop should have a hallmark if it's 18K? | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
I really don't know for sure. Here's a site regarding Swiss Hallmarking that might help: http://poincon.blogspot.com/ Good luck if you bid, gatorcpa | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 7 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the link, Gatorcpa. BTW, do you have any rough prce range for this watch? | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
No idea at the moment. I paid about $400 two years ago, but the one you are looking at is in better condition and should bring quite a bit more. These are very popular with European collectors and they have been driving the price up due to the fall in the US Dollar. Things are very cheap here for Europeans right now. Take care, gatorcpa | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 8 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, gatorcpa. Honestly I don't think I will win this particular auction. It seems to me the prices have gone quite a bit crazy for the past 3 weeks or so (since I first tracked them). But good thing is I am not in a hurry. | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
Looking at the auction again, it certainly doesn't appear to me that the prices have gone "crazy" at all. It's currently around $750, which seems maybe a bit low. I would actually suggest that an expected final auction price for this watch in excellent condition, as shown, would approach $1,000. The same watch in a vintage watch retail store would probably command $1,500 or more. That's still a huge bargain compared to prices of brand new solid gold watches. Condition should also be a big factor in your purchase decision. In my own collecting, I'm happy to pay top dollar for watches in mint or near mint condition. These watches will appreciate much more rapidly than their worn/tattered counterparts and ultimately represent the best investment value. Always buy the best condition you can afford. Patience is a virtue, but I wouldn't wait too long for a bargain. Prices are sure to continue going up. Greg | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
MartyW - GregB is absolutely correct regarding value. To equate this to today's money, an equivalent new JLC Master Ultra Thin in 18K rose gold goes for around $6K, depending on where you buy. This JLC is one of the nicer, original ones I've seen in a long while. Ones like mine have been pushing $1K recently on the 'Bay. If you can get in for near that amount, you will have done very well. gatorcpa | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 9 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi Greg and gatorcpa. You both are correct. At the current price, if that's the final price, it will be a great bargain. 3 weeks ago, a watch very similar to this finished at slightly below $1K. But as I've said, currently there seems to be a lot of people with lot of extra cash. I won't be surprised if this watch finishes above $1500. And yes, I have been shopping in stores too (for other brands), and I am also aware how expensive a new JLC is. Good thing is I just want to give my dad something very similar to his stolen watch. | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Another question to the experts: is the dial really un-refinished? There are a lot of minor differences (spacing of many things, "swiss made", hour markers' shape and location) on the dial between gatorcpa's dress watch and this one. Is it just a matter of different production years? Thanks again. | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 45 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
The dial is original. Everything looks correct to me. Dial condition is also consistent with the minty sharp edges on the case. Greg | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 11 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Greg. | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
I have another question. On this different auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/50s-LECOULTRE-Stunning-Linen-Dial-Signed-4Xs-Serviced_W0QQit emZ320141365876QQihZ011QQcategoryZ31387QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Is there anything that's not right with this watch? I am thinking the dial has been refinished because I don't think the raised JL logo should be there for a LeCoultre watch. Am I correct? I do see the rub mark on the right side of the dial, and so it could be the dial is really original and untouched. What about the crown? Is that from a different JLC watch? In general, does the US market LeCoultre dress watches use the JL logo in the 60's? Thanks again in advance for any pointers. | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
The raised "JL" logo was present on many of the LeCoultre models, including this one. The dial on the watch you're asking about appears to be original. I believe that a thinner dress crown was used for this model, but I'm not certain. Not a big issue. Over the last 5 years, I've probably bought/sold a dozen of the cal 480 subseconds models like this one. All of them that had signed crowns were similar to below:   Another watch:  | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 31 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
I really like the linen dial. Watch looks all original to me. Only question I have is whether the case is 10K gold filled or 14K gold. LeCoultre did not make any 14K gold filled cases to my knowledge. Probably just a typo, so ask the seller for clarification. The cal. K480 movement is a sister to the P800 in the JLC you asked about earlier. Both are excellent timekeepers. Good luck, gatorcpa | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 13 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Once again, thanks guys. As a newbie, it's just strange to see the JL logo without the 12 o'clock hour marks. My first impression was someone has lost the 12 o'clock markers and replaced it with the JL logo. Thanks for clarifying it. I was wanting to ask about the time keeping aspect of P800, but gatorcpa has already beat me to it. From the picture it seems to me the P800 doesn't have as many jewels as the later movements and so I was wondering whether it's a reliable one. Thanks again. And Greg, that's a very nice looking dress watch you posted here. Interestingly, at the bottom of the dial there is only the word "swiss" instead of the normal "swiss made". So many variations for someone new to decipher! | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
Marty, Actually, if you look closely, you'll see that the 2 pictures I posted are of 2 different (identical model) watches. The "swiss" at the bottom of the dial is exactly the same as what is marked on the watch auction you asked about. Regarding the two calibers when gatorcpa says the movements were "sisters", he means that the 10-1/2 ligne cal 480 was the base caliber for the later cal 800. The cal 480 was a workhorse and was used in tons of JLC/LeCoultre models including the famous Mystery Dials. Greg | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, Greg. So all US Le Coultre use "swiss" instead of "swiss made"? Looking at the 'Bay of the Le Coultre again, I don't see any mentioning of 14K/18K or any hallmarks inside the caseback. Should the US Le Coultre also has hallmarks if the case is solid gold? May be the seller stated it is a 14K gold filled because the lack of hallmarks inside the caseback? Do you LeCoultre solid 14K/18K watches have the proper hallmarks inside? Acutally even as only a gold filled, that particular one's case seems to be in excellent condition. | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 48 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
The case material marking on these models is located on the back near the lugs. On one end near the lugs will appear the inscription "Use All Proof Wrench" (which means refers to a crystal lift tool because the movement comes out through the crystal). On the other side, it will be stamped with the case metal content. Look at the seller's picture in this link: http://i1.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/ac/49/2212_3.JPG Near the bottom right of the picture you can see the stamp saying "Use All Proof Wrench". On the upper left between the lugs you can barely see an area where the inscription for gold content is. I can't make out what it says in the picture, but I believe this case was made by Star Watch Case Company (cases for most U.S.-Market LeCoultres were made by one of about 5 or 6 case companies) for LeCoultre and will say "10 Karat Gold-Filled" Greg | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
After double checking, the cases on all my LeCoultre subseconds models like this were made by K&E, not Star. Here's a picture of how a solid 14K case is stamped:  | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
At the time these watches were made in the early 1960's: "Swiss" - Denotes that the movement and possibly the dial were made in Switzerland, the case may or may not have been made there. For watches sold in the USA, there were customs charges that were avoided by having the finishing work done here rather than in Switzerland. "Swiss Made" - denotes that all essential parts of the watch (movement, dial and case) were made and assembled in Switzerland. This is why the JLC says "Swiss Made" and the LeCoultre says "Swiss", even though the movements are pretty much the same other than the engraving on the bridge. The practice of exporting raw movements was known as National Production, and was common in the USA, UK and Argentina. A lot of very fine watch companies did this on occasion, but JLC was one of the few who created a separate brand for the US market. Think Acura and Honda. All Acuras have Honda engines, because they are manufacured in Honda factories. Hope this helps, gatorcpa | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 15 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
gatorcpa, first off, thanks for the trouble to open up your own watches to answer my question. Back to the question about whether the Le Coultre I pointed out from the 'Bay. With the lack of any hallmarks, will it be that it really is not a solid 14K gold case? | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 16 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
gatorcpa, thanks for the clarification on "swiss" and "swiss made". I thought it was just depended on the phase of the moon. I like Acura too. Just for fun, have you noticed recent Acura VINs don't start with JP any more? | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 17 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
How many jewels are in the P800 movement? Is it 15? 17? Thanks. | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
MartyW - Lot of questions, eh? 1. I believe that both have 17 jewels. GregB or Zaf would know for sure. 2. Don't drive an Acura anymore, so didn't notice. 3. Pretty sure that LeCoultre has a gold filled case. As GregB pointed out, there is a hallmark on the outside of the case. It's just not visible at the angle the photo was taken. BTW, you're not the marty that won the JLC auction, are you? gatorcpa | ||
| Gregb New member Username: Gregb Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
The cal 800 is a 15-jewel movement. The cal 480 has 17 jewels. Greg | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 18 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Greg, thanks for the answer. gatorcpa, I will agree with you, especially after seeing Greg's pictures, that the LeCoultre is not a solid gold and I will bid accordingly. BTW, what's a fair price range for that watch? But I think I am most likely will pass as my dad's old watch was not a goldfilled one. And no, I am not that person who won the JLC. It is quite a coincident with the same first name. My targeted highest bid was $1140, but I certainly won't be thinking I am only 60 bucks away from winning. Who knows how deep the rabbit hole goes. Within the last minute when I want to place my bid, the current amount was already higher than my target and so I couldn't bid. BTW, do you think my highest bid was too low (or high) for that particular watch? Was I realistic? | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
I think the gold-filled LeCoultre is at or above my personal assessment of value right now. But the dial is in exceptional condition, so maybe I'm too harsh. On the JLC, I think it sold for a fair price. This search is going to take a lot of patience on your part. eBay is no longer a secret. Many dealers are bidding up the prices trying to score a bargain, or knowing that it makes their inventory more valuable. Regardless, the US Dollar cost is going up for everyone, given the exchange rate situation. Take care and good luck in your search, gatorcpa | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 19 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
I have another watch from another source I want to get some opinions on. This one is very similar to the JLC auction that has just ended this past weekend. Same silver dial, crosshair center, 18K gold case, gold-filled buckle, aftermarket leather straps. But this one is an automatic. On the dial it says "Superautomatic" and right underneath, "Waterproof". The case back is screw type.  I've tried searching the internet for "Superautomatic" but I have not had a single match. Does any one know this is geniune? If so, what's the movement? Is Superautomatic a 880? 881? Sorry, I can't get a picture of the inside. As far as value goes, if the other JLC went for $1200, assuming this one is in identical condition (excellent non-refinished dial, excellent case and crystal, original signed crown, original gold-filled buckle, original JLC movement) how much I should expect to be paying? As for collection purpose, given this and the manual wind crosshair, which one is a better choice? Could the "Superautomatic" movement in this watch be more problematic down the road, like impossible to find parts? I've read Greg's and Zaf's comments about difficulty in sourcing Futurematic parts. Once again, thanks a whole bunch. | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 2732 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
You may want to start a new thread per watch, as the really long threads get hard to follow. I have not seen superautomatic or waterproof as far as I can remember. Maybe someone confused it with a Mido while re-doing the dial? It's really hard to tell from the photo. | ||
| Herman New member Username: Herman Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2006 Rating: N/A |
Rather perverse idea to put "waterproof" on a dial when the watch, in all likelihood, is NOT waterproof. | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Zaf. You are right, so far the only reference I got with Superautomatic is Mido. Since I still have no luck in requesting a bigger and better picture, I will assume the above mentioned watch has been redialed, which the owner has told me it has not been. | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 32 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Hi gatorcpa and Greg. About the buckle on this crosshair JLC (yes, I know I have said I won't have cared, but that was two weeks ago and now just say I have progressed), gatorcpa, you have said earlier that this is a replacement gold-plated buckle. What do you mean by "replacement"? A real vintage JLC taken from another watch? A real JLC one but manufactured at a later day? Or a homemade buckle from Canada? During the auction I've asked the seller about the inner width of the buckle and he told me it's 16mm. Now, Greg, you have mentioned vintage buckles are either 14mm or 15mm. Does it mean this buckle is not of vintage stock? How to spot a fake/reproduction? I know some recent one on the 'Bay are really rough looking, and I have of no doubt the geninue JLC buckle are highly polish and precisely manufactured. So that's one clue. Does size itself is a solid lead too? Does the 16mm buckle on this crosshair JLC look like a reproduction or really a JLC? Thanks again. | ||
| Martyw New member Username: Martyw Post Number: 33 Registered: 07-2007 Rating: N/A |
Oh, direct link to the crosshair JLC: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170131732938&ssPageName= STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007 |