| Author | Message | ||
     Blgg New member Username: Blgg Post Number: 43 Registered: 04-2007 Rating: N/A |
Thanks to Zaf's exceptional horological expertise, I was notified of a fake watch. I consider this a valuable learning experience, and share it with you below. I thought I had purchased a rare Gubelin alarm watch that is, in reality, a made-over Bulova. Thank you again, Zaf.     | ||
| Jimh New member Username: Jimh Post Number: 4 Registered: 06-2007 Rating: N/A |
I'm a bit confused by your post. Is the watch on the right the one you purchased and the one on the left a Bulova Alarm using the Bulova 11 AERC movement? Gubelin did not manufacture any movements themselves but rather bought movements from other manufacturers. Since the movement in the "Gubelin" watch is marked Gubelin how do you know that this movement was not obtained by Gubelin from Bulova for use in this alarm watch? Gubelin certainly used the A Schild 1475 alarm movement in some of their alarm watches (as well as others I believe). The cases are from the same case manufacturer, CB, but this does not necessarily mean that the "Gubelin" watch is not from Gubelin. This case was not manufactured by Bulova either but rather for Bulova. Often watch manufacturers used the same cases particularly on low volume products like alarm watches. I note that the crowns are different. Do you suspect (or can see) that the bridge marked "Gubelin" has been ground down (to eliminate the Bulova designation), re-jeweled, re-engraved, and re-plated? Or a new bridge fabricated? This seems unlikely and the work involved in doing this (as well as a re-dial) would seem to negate the profit in the fake. Bottom line: Exactly how do you know that the watch is a fake? | ||
| Blgg New member Username: Blgg Post Number: 44 Registered: 04-2007 Rating: N/A |
... left is Bulova, right is 'Gubelin'. I believe the bottom line is that Gubelin components are well beyond the scope - from a cost and quality perspective - of anything Bulova would use in its watches. I suspect it's rather like finding a Timex movement in a Cartier. I would personally speculate that a new bridge may have been cut. To my eye, it's a simple template, and, upon close inspection, the bridge material is unexceptional. As to cost, I'd think the bridge fabrication would be minimal expense in time and materials, and a competent redial can be had for $25-$50. As to valuation, Gubelins have a substantial (perhaps order of magnitude?) multiple over Bulovas. Also, when using other manufacturer's movements, such as a Jaeger-LeCoultre Memovox alarm movement, Gubelin often added custom refinements -- the pedestrian Bulova movement in the 'Gubelin' is entirely off the shelf. In my view, the prospect that Gubelin and Bulova were buying the exact same movements AND cases on the open market is very unlikely... Gubelin is Europe's Cartier, and I doubt they were selling refaced Bulovas in their shops for literally thousands more. However, if you feel it is a Gubelin, I feel certain you can own it for a fraction of its original price. Let me know if you want it. | ||
| Jimh New member Username: Jimh Post Number: 5 Registered: 06-2007 Rating: N/A |
I think that you overestimate the quality of Gubelin watches and underestimate the quality of Bulova watches & movements. The Bulova 11 AERC movement was unique to Bulova and easily could have been used by Gubelin for an alarm watch. It is certainly of as high (or higher) quality than the A Schild alarm movements that Gubelin did use. I certainly don't think this is anything like "finding a Timex movement in a Cartier". Bulova watches were of quite high quality. One of the major reasons for the relatively high price of Gubelin watches (other than their generally good quality) is their relative rarity. This is especially true when compared to a manufacturer like Bulova which produced many more watches. I wouldn't put Gubelin on quite the same level as Cartier especially at the time when these watches were being produced. As a matter of fact, Gubelin would have had no choice but to use "pedestrian" A. Schild (or Bulova) alarm movements in their alarm watches since these movements were among the few alarm calibers available at the time. I'm not sure what you mean by your comment "I doubt they were selling refaced Bulovas in their shops for literally thousands more". These watches didn't cost "thousands of dollars" and why wouldn't they sell them for more if they could based on the Gubelin name. This is certainly true in the use of ETA movements like the 2824 or 2892 today. You might want to look into the authenticity of this watch a bit more for a couple of reasons. First, fakes watches of the era usually didn't even bother to "sign" the movement since the buyer usually never opened the watch. Second, if one were to fake a Gubelin alarm watch why not start with one of the A Schild alarm movements that we know Gubelin actually did use. Those could also have been obtained unsigned and been easy to mark "Gubelin" I hope you didn't pay too much for this watch since you are now uncertain of it authenticity. Best of luck in future acquisitions. | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
Don't think I can add much to JimH's analysis, but my gut tells me that the Gubelin is real. A quick Google search found another Gubelin alarm watch sold by Zaf. While that one has a different alarm movement, the dial markings and logos are almost identical. I've been told that both Bulova and Gubelin used generic Swiss movements outfitted with their own logos in the late 1950's. Therefore, it is perfectly plausible that the exact same movement could be used by both brands. And the case would have to be manufactured by the same company, as the case back has a small metal bar that was struck in order to create the alarm. A generic case would not work. IMHO, an alarm watch would be very difficult to fake to any reasonable level of detail. Alarm movements were pretty rare from any brand not containing the name LeCoultre. The return from faking a non-precious metal watch with a legit Swiss movement would be fairly small compared to the price upgrade. Just my $0.02 worth, gatorcpa | ||
| Zaf Moderator Username: Zaf Post Number: 2628 Registered: 05-2003 Rating: N/A |
To my knowledge, I have never sold a schild powered Gubelin, but I've sold several thousand watches, so it is possible. I certainly have not sold one recently. If you're looking at Finer times, that has several vendors supplying it's content that I do not control. IMO, the watch is NOT real, but it's only by seeing it in person that one can make a final analysis. | ||
| Blgg New member Username: Blgg Post Number: 45 Registered: 04-2007 Rating: N/A |
Here is the web page address with the discussion and photos of the Gubelin alarm with the A Schild 1475 movement: http://www.kaboodle.com/friendoftime/Other-Timepieces-n-such/gubelin-alarm I did a lot of digging -- and this is the ONLY example, that I can find, of this combination. I have seen no documentation that Gubelin 'made' more than 1 of these with the A Schild 1475 -- or did Gubelin make any? Is this 1 example confirmation that Gubelin made this model? Does anyone have documentation that Gubelin made these, or more than 1 of these exist? I'd love to see it, as I am near-obsessed with Gubelins, which is why I chanced buying one in France. . and I quote from this page: "What makes Gubelin stand out is the level of finishing found on the movements put in their watches. This particular one has a different regulator and has beautiful demaskeening on even the INSIDE of the resonance chamber, where nobody can see them !!" Now -- what can be (I think) clearly gleaned from the 'Gubelin' I illustrate is that the movement is generic and generally rough, and not in any way embellished in typical Gubelin fashion -- with a bridge that appears perhaps less machined and finished than a run-of-the-mill Bulova alarm watch movement.   | ||
| Jimh New member Username: Jimh Post Number: 6 Registered: 06-2007 Rating: N/A |
I think that you may have gone off the deep-end a bit with Gübelin. While Gübelin sold some Gübelin-branded watches using high-end movements from leCoultre, AP, VC, Peseux, etc., they also sold Gübelin-branded watches using movements from many other Swiss manufacturers including A.Schild, ETA, Gruen, Eterna, Felsa, Fontainemelon, etc. Not every Gübelin watch looks like a Patek inside. The difficulty in finding Gübelin alarm watches on-line (only single examples like your AS 1475 case) isn't too surprising since it's difficult to find many examples of any Gübelin watch out there. There wasn't that high a volume produced particularly for the U.S. By the way, the AS 1475 was also used by Girard-Perregaux as their 11.09 caliber as well as by many other manufacturers. Have you tried contacting Gübelin themselves? Do they have any history of their watch production back in the 50s & 60s? If you find they have a knowledgeable historian willing to help you, then you could get some definitive information. | ||
| Gatorcpa New member Username: Gatorcpa Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2006 Rating: N/A |
Well, I was able to solve part of the mystery. On the bridge of the Gubelin, there is a patent number of 2,803,940. A quick search of the US Patent Office site for that number gives this information: http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US002803940&SectionNum=2&IDKey=2841F9003C8A& HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%25 26d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f =G%2526l=50%2526s1=2803940.PN.%2526OS=PN/2803940%2526RS=PN/2803940 You might have to load a plug-in to see the pictures and patent information. The patent was awarded to Venus Co. for, of all things, an alarm watch! So, my guess is that Venus (or one of many related subsidiaries of ETA) made this movement for both Bulova and Gubelin. I can't find any version other than the Bulova on the Ranfft Pink Pages site. However, while the site is the best archive of Swiss movements, it doesn't have all versions of all movements made. I'll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions from the evidence. I love a good mystery, gatorcpa |